If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. I pray the Lord will heal you of all your wounds, sir. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! @ Max: After internship I started a residency in psychiatry but I did not finish the residence. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. I would not doubt it all. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. Or for his wife? Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. Thanks for giving us that information. I get full after two. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. or a swindler [scams, cons] I helped lead a Celebrate Recovery group in my church (Im not an alky but my co-leader is a recovering alcoholic). I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? No, I am not talking about recovered alcoholics who repented of embracing patriarchy. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. has sent more people to churches than churches have ever sent to A.A., just sitting in a pew is a big step for some .. the physical act of coming into what in our Judeo-Christian ethic is sanctuary, a place of safety and peace, yeah, there are times in my life when just sitting there was all I could manage. God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. Mr F I am not interested in reading the article and getting into a debate on his theology and no I do not believe that sin in RC2 life is caused by his fathers theology. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Nothing in life is full-proof. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. I feel so sorry for those kids all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, (*I am not endorsing Rachel Held Evans, this is just the website where I found the article.). That has nothing to do with your situation, which we do not know about, nor anything to do with what you have said since you have not said any of those things. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. The Orlando Sentinel published a fitting obituary on December 15, here included in part: [2]. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. Improper judgement is known to be observed during alcohol impairment. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. How can it possibly not be idolatry to not hold accountable leadership in the church? (P.S. Would it be okay with you to then obey what Jesus and Paul say in the Word of God? While its good that he is in therapy, where is his accountability with other recovering alcoholics? I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. I remember how lonely I was when I first walked away from the spiritually toxic environment that I found in the inner circle of that church. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. Earlier, I posted this comment on a FB page discussing this mess. I havent seen anyone here, including the people you keep belittling, say that a church shouldnt even try to get professional help for an alcoholic member, just the opposite. And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Oh, excellent, Nancy2. Seen too many neglected children, too many doormat wives, too many run ins with family members, cops, late night contentious phone calls, etc , etc. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. Not born again huh? No need to debate. Once again Velours advice is pragmatic and sound. Barbra said that R.C. Hi Julie Anne, I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. @ Christiane: I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. Welcome to TWW. That is manipulative on your part. Of course enabling doesnt help, ever. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. She was wise enough to divorce him and move across the country. Sproul Jr. should definitely be fired for his litany of abuses of church members and his other disqualifying behaviors. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. I am sorry that you are in pain and may have to have surgery. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. You have taken this quote out of context . By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.jr.s book. Bike Bubba, wasnt he having problems before his first wife passed away? Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. ), When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. Sometimes, we just have bad genes because we live in a world with disease and suffering. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? But her children have been wounded and scarred. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. I did check the link that H.A. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. (California) IMPORTANT PRIVACY NOTICE & DISCLAIMER: YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO USE CAUTION WHEN DISTRIBUTING PRIVATE INFORMATION. We certainly understand the issue as much as anybody. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. 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